Considering the October 18, 1977, conversation with Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krishna
I was just contemplating the October 18, 1977, conversation with Srila Prabhupada about Mr. Chowdury’s desire to be initiated by him, and a new realization came that makes it seem definite that he did not authorize Jayapataka Swami (or anyone else) to be a diksa guru on or before that date.
Chowdury came to India aspiring for initiation by Srila Prabhupada, and though rtviks had been deputized to take care of the whole process, Srila Prabhupada was for some reason notified about Mr. Chowdury’s desire for initiation. Srila Prabhupada confirmed that JPS was on the list of deputized rtviks and said he could do it.
The trouble with thinking that Srila Prabhupada authorized the 11 rtviks to act as actual initiating gurus (in addition to other reasons that I won’t repeat right now) is that if Srila Prabhupada would not accept him as his disciple, he should have let Mr. Chowdury choose a guru from “the list” rather than deciding for him.
The notion that Sria Prabhupada would have usurped Mr. Chowdury’s free will and picked JPS without even talking to Mr. Chowdury about it is very doubtful, to put it mildly. It’s like Zonal Acarya thinking, but worse, since Chowdury was from USA and just visiting India. It is impersonal and makes Srila Prabhupada look bad.
Why would Srila Prabhupada deny Chowdury the right to choose a guru who inspires him (like the Zonal Acarya era) and even then pick for him a guru who resides on the opposite side of the globe? What if Chowdury did not like JPS for some reason? It contradicts the notion that the disciple has to test the guru, effectively giving him no role in the matter. I cannot believe Srila Prabhupada would trample over anyone’s freedom to approach the guru of one’s own choice by making the choice for him, especially if he had also authorized others to give initiation too.
Although there are many other reasons to think Srila Prabhupada had only authorized rtviks as of October 18, 1977, which I think are sufficient themselves, some others do not agree. I will be surprised if they can refute this analysis.
Please discuss.
Hare Krishna.
Well the notion that ‘disciple’ must have a free will to chose a guru is not a tradition as we know. Hundreds of aspiring disciples were told to ‘go to this person and get initiated’. Examples are many for this one… so your logic fails.
I think you should consider the following words of Bhaktivinoda Thakura to understand that initiation is not everything and that there is a need to attain purity to be a guru. “There are many people who have taken initiation in the Vaishnava mantra but who continue to be under the sway of the Mäyäväda philosophy due to their ignorance of Vaishnava doctrine. A devotee who chants the Holy Name without offenses will not be contaminated by such faults. A person who has simply been initiated is called a Vaisnava-praya, or ‘almost a Vaishnava.’ One who has chanted the Holy Name even once without offenses is a pure devotee, even though one is on the lowest platform. A householder should serve devotees who are at least of this caliber.” (Amrta-pravaha-bhasya, 2.15.111)
The actual conversation is below:
Prabhupāda: I want association of Vaiṣṇava. You are all pure Vaiṣṇavas. You have sacrificed everything, material comforts, for Kṛṣṇa’s sake. That is Vaiṣṇava. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. You have no other desire. You Europeans, Americans, you are born amongst material desires. And when you become free from material desires… Therefore you are all Vaiṣṇava, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. So you are so merciful. Where Tamāla gone?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I’m here Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So, you are taking care of that conveyance?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Jayapatākā: Because you are a paramahaṁsa, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing everyone else as surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. But only by your mercy, you are forcing us to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Prabhupāda: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually… Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So I think Jayapatākā can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, deputies, Jayapatākā’s name was there?
Bhagavān: It is already on there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. His name was on that list.
Prabhupāda: So I depute him to do this at Māyāpura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stopped doing what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Girirāja: It’s clear.
Prabhupāda: You have got the list of the names?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: And if by Kṛṣṇa’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.
Girirāja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm?
Girirāja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.
Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven’t got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme-useless. Sāttvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam… From Brahma-saṁhitā?
The whole “ritvik” movement was simply a response to the bogus gurus in ISKCON, much like how atheism and satanism were simply a reponse to fundamentalist Christianity.
Just because most gurus in ISKCON are bogus doesn’t mean that we should reject the institution of guru and disciple. Rather, we should go find a REAL guru, whether that guru happens to be inside ISKCON or not.
das,
Caitanya dasa
http://harekrishnadiary.blogspot.com/
No, the rtvik movement started because devotees finally got to see the evidence for themselves, whereas before that they had only been told that Srila Prabhupada appointed 11 successor acaryas. The frequent falldowns of gurus was secondary.
If I have to go find another guru then I might as well forget it because I don’t have that luxury. Nor do I have any guarantee of not being cheated again. No, I’ll just continue to put my faith in Srila Prabhupada. If I cannot be accepted as his disciple in this life, then I’ll find him in the next. (B.g. 7.23)
Hare Krishna.
>If I have to go find another guru then I might as well >forget it because I don’t have that luxury.
What is the meaning of your above quoted statement? I don’t clearly understand.
I’m heavily encumbered with material circumstances, but little money. I have a wife and five children who need my material support and spiritual guidance. I have a house with some land and protected farm animals. It’s a big deal for me to leave home for two days. Three days away requires extensive arrangements. I cannot go around the world looking for a guru. If that is required, then it is hopeless for me.
All I have for my spiritual advancement is Srila Prabhupada’s books and recordings, and I really think that is plenty for me.
Good point. I can see why you say so.
About you mentioning that you are encumbered with material responsibilities. That is normal for householders. And that is why sadhus and sannyasis travel, so that they can visit the householders who do not have the freedom to move. You could always invite sadhus/sannyasis to your house for visit, or if they are coming through your area, you could go visit them.
By the way, Pandu Prabhu. This is also why sadhus write books. Even though they may never meet the sadhu face to face, by reading his book, a person can associate with the sadhu. Therefore, you can always go and buy some of a sadhu’s books and thus get his association that way also.
Yes, I’m associating with Srila Prabhupada in that way, and also by listening to his audio recordings each day.