Vegan Hare Krishna Centers
It has recently come to my attention that Hare Krishna centers in New Zealand have stopped offering milk products to Krishna because they don’t have any protected cows giving milk. Of course we know we must do our best to protect cows and that much more should be done, but I don’t believe stopping milk offerings is a step in that direction.
As I recall, most of the time when Srila Prabhupada gave a reason for protecting cows, it was that we take her milk and therefore the cow is our mother. That argument is weakened when we renounce milk.
The material condition is suffering a variety of pains and anxieties with repeated birth, disease, old age, and death (though unprotected cows rarely get to experience old age), and the body cannot be protected beyond what the individual karma affords, except through mercy connected with devotional service. Real protection is to engage someone in Krishna’s service.
So here is a situation where devotees apparently have bowed to the social influence of overwhelmingly atheistic vegan animal rights activists (I was one of those before finding Srila Prabhupada’s books) and stopped offering milk to Krishna. Devotees have thereby stopped connecting suffering dairy cows with Krishna through devotional service.
Now Krishna will apparently have no reason to think, “Since I have taken this cow’s milk, I should save the soul from this unfortunate condition and place her in a family of My devotees.”
I’m not aware that Srila Prabhupada ever said to only offer milk to Krishna if it can be obtained from protected cows. If there a written analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on this subject that prompted this decision, I’d like to see it.
Hare Krishna
Pandu Prabhu,
New Zealand is the land of cows and sheep. I don’t believe that there are not enough protected cows to give milk. If you read recent articles from Sampradaya Sun you may come to know that Devamrita Swami is behind this and he is promoting Veganism in Australia and New Zealand.
Check this out:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-09/editorials4482.htm
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-09/editorials4491.htm
Hare Krishna
You don’t need to be an Atheist to insist on veganism. I am a vegan Buddhist, and for me, the two go hand in hand. Liberation of the self is intrinsically linked with liberation of other beings. I am against the use of any sentient being for any reason.
While I am aware of the argument for protected cows (and I have no desire to debate it), the argument that getting unethical milk is more acceptable than getting no milk at all is absurd. If you can get protected milk, do it. If not, it is NOT okay to support animal torture in order to fulfill a religious belief.
Respectfully,
Michael A. Weber
Outreach Coordinator
Farm Animal Rights Movement
outreach@farmusa.org
Dear Michael,
Your arguement is coming from the bodily platform (the suffering animal’s bodies). Pandu’s arguement is coming from the spiritual platform (the suffering animal’s souls). His arguement is therefore superior.
Michael,
I’ve been fighting to protect animals for over fifteen years, but unfortunately I was recently alienated from the vegan community by the animal rights blogger at change.org due to this issue.
Buddhism denies the real, personal attributes of God, and is therefore atheistic. However, Buddhism recognizes the principles of karma and reincarnation, which indicate that no one gets suffering they do not deserve. Buddhism does not see transcendental activity, so you cannot give relief to anyone unless it is the result of their karma. Materially, we’re all within the same closed system.
There is, however, transcendental activity. Everything done for Krishna’s service is transcendental, meaning that it is spiritual, not material, even if it appears material according to ordinary vision. That is the faith of Krishna’s devotees, and it is supported by the Vedas. So when we offer milk to Krishna, the spiritual benefit goes not only to the devotee, but also to the cow, the farmer, the truck driver, the store clerk, etc. This helps the cow immensely and also gradually changes the people involved, softening their hearts. Opposition rarely does that. Usually it achieves the opposite.
Michael,
P.S. I should add, though, that I really appreciate the work you and others do with F.A.R.M., as I’m sure tou know by my frequent “re-tweets” of your stuff. On this issue, though, I have to stand firm. I’ve heard it said that there is no such thing as an ethical vegetarian, and I object to that. I can understand the rationale for boycotting milk, and indeed that is better than drinking milk for one’s own bodily satisfaction, but still better is to get some milk, butter, panir, etc., and offer it to Krishna. We still have to protect cows in the bodily sense (I have one happy cow at my house), but in order to help them spiritually we have to engage them in Krishna’s service. That can be done whether the cow is in a sanctuary or a hellish dairy farm.
Hari Hari! i love the transcendental point of view. we can help go-mata – mother cow- no matter what position she is in. of course, protected is best, but if not, by the grace of Krishna, she benefits and we benefit. sounds like a win-win situation to me.
Oh, and great new blog layout, Pandu. i’m all for Green, but not when you can’t see the words for the trees
Hare Krishna:
The only idea of “Vegan temple” is ridiculous,we are not vegetarian,we are servants of Krishna,He is lacto vegetarian,so we are…
He loves the cows so why He is call Govinda and His abode Goloka.
He is going to accept any milk if we offer Him it with love and devotion(and a Tulasi leaf)
We have to try to protect the cows,but our first duty is to satisfy Krishna.He is the root of everything,trying to protect cows without serving Krshna is to water the leafs.
Preaching is the essence of the non violence.Trying to recover our greed for speak to everybody about Krishna is our best way for love the animals.
When someone love Krishna love everything related with Him….
(and all the living entities animals or not animals are related to Him)
Sita-pati Prabhu,
The article by Kurma Prabhu (“not the chef”) gave references, where I found this statement:
“We have always been dedicated vegetarians at the Loft, and now we have expanded into veganism! All meals are prepared without any animal derived ingredient.”.
http://www.theloft.org.nz/?page_id=4
I can’t go to New Zealand, so I have to rely on what I read. I did not consider Sampradaya Sun a primary source. In any case, S.S. is not Wikipedia. If you see an article that is factually incorrect, you should submit one setting the record straight. Anyway, the Wikipedia owner doesn’t police the site himself to remove insufficiently supported statements. It’s up to the public to make sure it’s up to standard. Obviously you know what’s going on there, so tell us.
Whether some Hare Krishna temples, preaching centers, or restaurants have eliminated milk products, or not, there seems to be some devotees who are in favor of that. So my article can at least be taken as a brief refutation of their idea.
Hare Krishna.
Also, Sita-pati, I’m especially surprised to see a challenge about accurate reporting, since just before writing my blog entry, I read the following written by you:
“New Zealand’s main outreach centers have implemented a policy of only using milk from protected cows. In practice this has translated into a vegan menu at Auckland’s The Loft, and Wellington’s Gaura Yoga.
“Since there are no protected cows giving milk within the movement in New Zealand there is no milk to use.”
http://www.atmayogi.com/node/976
I don’t understand where my facts are wrong.
Pandu Prabhu
It doesn’t need super intelligence to understand where Sita-pati Prabhu is coming from, he is just trying to back his spiritual master Devamrita Swami’s action, period!!
Hare Krishna
Pandu, you said:
“Hare Krishna centers in New Zealand have stopped offering milk products to Krishna”
However, this is incorrect.
More accurately:
“(some) Hare Krishna centers in New Zealand have stopped offering milk products to *guests*”
The above, while more accurate, is still misleading.
“Some Hare Krishna outreach centers in New Zealand have stopped offering milk products made milk from unprotected cows to guests”
is precisely correct.
Kela Tirtha das to me, in personal conversation in 2008 when I asked him about it while in NZ: “It’s not that Krishna doesn’t get his milk sweets”.
Sam: don’t speculate about other people’s motives….
Better to discuss with a buddhist…..(he is frontal with his arguments) than with that “new siddhantics” people….is a waste of time…they[think] are “more inteligents than SP”
Sam, notice that I don’t make any value judgments or statements about the strategy.
All I’m saying is: get your facts straight before you have an opinion.
Sita-pati,
I started this post as a comment on your blog, but I decided to post it here to avoid a confrontation with you. Despite the fact that we disagree sometimes, I have a lot of respect for you and consider you a good friend. So I don’t want to argue too much.
Yet I see that on your blog you turned it into an attack against me for writing this, and you’re here nitpicking. What gives? I’m not trying to write sastra here or smash devotees; I’m discussing an idea that has been bouncing around some circles in ISKCON and is manifesting in some places. There, I said “some” twice to make up for only implying it before.
Hare Krishna.
Pandu prabhu, I hear ya, and I’m sorry for coming across so hard and heavy.
It’s not meant to be an attack on you, any more than your discussion of the idea of veganism is meant to be an attack on the devotees in New Zealand. I’m sorry for coming across that way.
Kurma das has written his article in a particular style to support his particular agenda. By referencing the content of it and springboarding from it to your discussion of the idea of veganism your post reinforces his presentation. It implicitly accepts what he says as a fact, although he lacks first hand knowledge, and much of what he says is his interpretation.
My theme of “Get your facts straight and then have an opinion” is not solely directed at you, but rather at everyone who has commented further on what he has to say, but without taking the trouble to verify it, or to state: “Kurma das said… (but I don’t know personally what the facts of the matter are)“.
Lots of people just pick up the ball and run with it – not simply on this issue, but every post on Sampradaya Sun that talks about what other people are doing, but without verification. I read things on there all the time and say: “Well, who knows what the actual situation is…” and reserve judgment. I watch as people pile on and talk it up, accepting unquestioning whatever was said before, with no evidence or discussion, including interpretations of people’s motives.
It’s a wider issue of an ongoing failure of epistemology and intellectual honesty.
In this case I do happen to know more about the situation, and I think it’s intellectually dishonest to publish like that, or to propagate it further.
As far as milk and cow protection goes, I think that H.H. Hrdayananda das Goswami described it best when he laid out the valid arguments on both sides (Milk – to drink or not to drink?) and stated that Vedic culture has room for both, and that’s it’s ultimately a question of individual conscience.
The factual error that you’re either picked up or introduced in the opening sentence of your post is that devotees in NZ no longer offer milk to Krishna. That’s not correct. They have not subscribed to a vegan ideology, but rather have taken the stance that they will only offer guests milk from protected cows.
As far as the post you cited from theloft.org.nz that says “we embrace veganism“, it’s written for the general public, and it means that vegan people can comfortably come and take prasadam there. At our house we frequently prepare dishes that are dairy-free, sugar-free, salt-free, or wheat-free for people who do not have these things for either health or ethical reasons. There are no barriers to Krishna prasadam, and we should prepare and offer things that are acceptable to Krishna so that everyone can partake.
The various perspectives on how to approach the situation of lack of cow protection is a good topic for discussion.
Personally we use commercial milk at home to prepare prasadam and also regularly serve it to guests. There is no milk available from cow protection here, nor do we have the resources or commitment to make it happen in the near future, unlike the NZ devotees.
Please accept my apologies for being overbearing.
There’s something here that I clearly am failing to understand. I’m hearing the argument, “Oh, no, it’s not that Gurudev considers veganism morally superior to lacto-vegetarianism; we are simply doing this to be acceptable to the guests we are targeting; privately, we still offer Krishna His milk sweets made from commercial milk.” But if accommodating guests were truly the motive, wouldn’t there be a similar imperative to do as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said he was willing to do, and serve meat in order to accommodate interested Westerners — vastly more of whom are meat-eaters than are vegans? If the goal is to satisfy the previous acharyas by adapting diet for preaching, shouldn’t there be vegan centers AND meat-providing centers? If you object to serving meat to guests (it’s not part of Krishna’s diet!), then shouldn’t there be equal objection to withholding milk from guests (it’s part of Krishna’s diet!)? If you are not going to offer your guests “Krishna diet” then why go against the previous acharyas and say one brand of maya (veganism) is tolerable, while a different brand of maya (meat-eating) is intolerable even though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said it would be OK?
Sitapati, how dare you be so conservative! Why not lighten up a little bit? Relax, and be liberal?
Jaya,I had just understand all the staff,they are only offer vegan meals in their centers for “preaching”…but is the vegan position a good thing?SP spoke that we are not even vegetarian….and now… are we vegan ?or act as a vegan for preaching purpose? and if we are not vegan ….why accept their philosophy(that dairy products are violence)if we think that not?We have to be a choice for the society ,we are not vegan,we are not vegetarian,we are servant of Krishna because HE IS GOD and HE accept dairy products from any cow,why?because Srila Prabhupada offered himself dairy products from any cow,so why!!! vegan meals are violence… why?because vegetables are also persons and we have to kill them for eat them so the only meal without karma is that meal cook for Krishna pleasure that OUR point that they are violent and we (Krishna devotees or trying to be one of them)not,that is SP way of preach…
I asked Kurma Prabhu (the famous vegetarian chef, Prabhupada disciple) about devotees offering carrot halava for the Deities at a local temple. The reason behind this question was that Hari-bhakti Vilas says that Vaisnavas should avoid carrots. Kurma Prabhu (the chef) answered me saying that Prabhupada encouraged his disciples to make and offer carrot halava to Krishna. Looks like there few different type of devotees 1) who strictly follow SP’s instructions 2) who strictly follow the scriptures 3) who takes SPs instructions half-heartedly and use it based on their conveniences.
There are already 20+ comments in this post but the most important thing to find out is whether Devamrita Swami is behind this and pushing his own agenda.
Hare Krishna
“Vegan meals for guests.”
In Portland our temple would get many vegan guests and they would not eat the prasadam due to their diet habits.
We therefore started to make several of the preps vegan so that our guests could eat prasadam.
Many such guests eventually became devotees and became lacto vegetarians offering all they eat to Krishna.
This seems a similar situation and I don’t really see how Srila Prabhupada would be displeased with it.
Hare Krishna
Your humble servant,
Nityananda Chandra Das
Dear Nityananda Chandra das,
There are nothing wrong with it,you do have your goals clear,you make some preps vegan , some not,and you teach vegan to become devotees,there are no way that SP would be displeased with that.
That is not the point the point here is”When we cannot obtain milk from protected cows we don’t use commercial milk” that is not a SP policy,their are “better than SP” more merciful with the gays,protect better the cows(from their milk be offered to Sri Krishna),etc…That’s the point
No Jaya Prema Gopal das, that is not the point, that is a strawman that you are constructing.
There is an important difference between understanding and disagreeing, and not understanding and subsequently “disagreeing” with something else.
“They believe / do X, and I disagree with X for the following reasons Y and Z.”
Y and Z might very well be good reasons why X is “wrong” / undesirable, but if the first part – “they believe / do X” is not correct, then you’re essentially talking about something completely different. That was my initial issue with this post, and unfortunately it seems to be a commonon fallacy.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s “Brahamana and Vaisnava” is an excellent example of “understand then refute”.
He first of all (in the first Jana-khanda portion of the published essay) presented the position of his opponents, not only to their complete satisfaction and agreement, but to a higher level than they themselves were able to do.
After this (in the second, Hari-khanda portion of the published essay) he presented his argument, which demonstrated that he had understood the valid points in the preceding argument and had something more to offer beyond that.
If you don’t understand what you are arguing against, then it’s better to present your position as something that stands on its own merits, rather than creating a strawman and claiming that it represents some other party.
And please, please, don’t speculate about people’s internal motivations. It’s rarely productive, and frequently dangerous. Just keep it to the observable and (as much as anything can be) objective facts.
Fact A-Srila Prabhupada offered any milk to Krishna for gave dairy products to the guest in all of his temples.
Fact B-”When we cannot obtain milk from protected cows we don’t use commercial milk”
So A is different than B,so:
1-A is better than B(I think so)
2-A is the same than B(noooo)
3-B is better than A-So why you change the politics, if not why do you change ,for worst??? (I agree)
So?????
Nityananda Chandra das: that’s half of the equation in NZ. The other half is an active strategy for cow protection.
Comment #3 on Madhava Ghosh’s September 5, 2008 post: Time to Live in the Here and Now Milk Drinkers is from Visnu-maya dd from Wellington, NZ.
She says “Our whole community in Wellington (of about 50 active preachers) are vegan as an interim means prior to acquiring our own cows (which is in the pipeline).”
I think that if an individual stops supporting the dairy industry (which is based on cow slaughter) by taking only milk from protected cows, that is laudable. Let’s call this #0.
There are two other cases:
#1: where an individual supports the dairy industry and does nothing to actively support cow protection (active = putting your money where your mouth is).
#2: where an individual chooses to stop actively supporting the dairy industry and actively works to create a cow protection situation to produce milk.
#0 is what Pandu does.
#2 is what they are doing in NZ.
#1 is what the majority of devotees in ISKCON are doing (including myself).
It seems strange to me that someone doing #1 should criticize those doing #2 for not also doing #1.
The devotees in NZ are not saying: “Everyone should do #2!” or “we are better than those doing #1″ (two common misrepresentations, as we see in comments above).
No, they are just choosing to do #2. Madhava Ghosh, in his article, points out the problems with #1 as a long term strategy.
The “attractive for vegans” is simply a side-effect of choosing to stop supporting the dairy industry and create cow protection as a central focus. They have not “stopped taking milk”, they are just dedicated to getting it from cow protection.
Also to be noted is that we are not talking about any of the ISKCON temples in New Zealand, but only urban outreach centers staffed by volunteers.
“We have always been dedicated vegetarians at the Loft, and now we have expanded into veganism! All meals are prepared without any animal derived ingredient”.http://www.theloft.org.nz/?page_id=4
Ooops, perhaps they don´t understand your point….perhaps you have to explain to them all your staff:” The “attractive for vegans” is simply a side-effect” ,specially explain them what that word “expanded” really means…..
And please define me the difference between your “urban outreach centers” and the Hare Krishna centers in the beginning of the KC in the Occident(apart from the fact that you have to pay for everything)
And this new post that Pandu prabhu wrote is conclusive and perfect so I m not going on with this,that is the real siddhanta:
http://oppositerule.govindapeacefarm.com/?p=672
to aviod confusion vegan is the answer
evolution in harmony ??
sure Prabupad Ji will agree !!
I was traveling a lot in India
being vegan i noticed a great respect
from many and lot of were making sure that i was not feed with any milk product
Safe the peace go Vegan
Andre
So much speculation. That is why we simply follow the acaryas. Our feeble intellects will go on arguing forever and ever. Its obvious its just egos clashing. WE arent vegans or vegetarians, were prasadarians. Whatever Sri Krsna enjoys eating then we cook and offer that to him.Too simple. If there appeared to be karma in that activity then it is all dissolved in the sweet smile of the Lord. Thats what all acaryas have taught us through their words and their example. In all the Gaudiya Vaisnava literature Ive read including all of Srila Prabhupadas letters and conversations, Ive never seen veganism or vegetarianism encouraged. Its always been about Krsna.
We all know that Prabhupada was not vegan and was probably not even aware that such a diet existed. However, although there is substantial support both from Prabhupada and the Vedas about the benefits of consuming dairy, the fact remains that currently more than 50% of the world population are lactose intolerant, because their stomach lacks the enzyme needed to digest it. When the Vedas were written this was most probably not the case, and of course there was no such thing as milk that was contaminated with growth hormones and antibiotics, etc. Even during Prabhupada’s time the state of the commercial milk was much more pure.
I believe that the labeling of someone as a VEGAN is the main problem. If someone prefers to not eat dairy, either because of moral or most often, the inability to digest them, then that must be honored. Contrary to what is often bandied about in ISKCON, not all vegans are atheistic or morally bankrupt. Many cannot digest dairy properly and therefore they prefer to avoid it.
Spiritual development is not dependent on dairy, but rather can come through pure devotion. If a temple decides to offer only dairy-free prasadam so as to attract more people and then induce them to chant the holy name, then what is the problem? However, that does not, and should not necessitate cutting dairy from Krishna’s diet. Krishna can accept all kinds of fruits, leaves, etc, if it is offered in devotion. And although he certainly loves dairy, He does not say, “I only eat food cooked with dairy.” I think it is a mistake to label something a Vegan temple or vegan restaurant. We are not vegetarian, lacto-vegetarian, vegan or any number of variations within the ahimsa diet. We are Prasadarians. And prasadam means all kinds of food from within the mode of goodness that has been offered with love and devotion. This includes dairy-laden foods and those with NO dairy.
When Prabhupada established ISKCON in the 1966, he soon after established farm communities as well wherein he explained that devotees of Krishna should grow their own food and milk their own cows. He wanted ISKCON to be a positive alternative to modern life. Devotees were to be self-sufficient.
For more on this,
http://www.ffl.org/pure-foodism/why-vegan/dairy/
and about the cow
http://www.ffl.org/pure-foodism/why-vegan/holy-cow/
As a side note: Food for Life Global, the headquarters for Food for Life projects around the world has taken a stand not to financially support prasadam distribution that uses commercial dairy products. Other than that, we support all Food for Life/prasadam distribution projects.
How a bathered up / abused can 1 cow achieve to be degraded before supporting the abusing factor of this cow levels your offering to Krishna down from mode good toward mode of ignorance? can you indirectly support murdering or abuse to feed your God ? Passion for sacricial
the worst people in any relgion are those who have given up to think for tehmselves what is good or bad.
How can Krishna enjoy a subjii with paneer, which is produced by so much violence and bloodsacrifice
to his dear cows?
Think first and then act!
@Priyavrata
Sadhu Sadhu!!
Thinking… Cows are thoroughly exploited in the world and chiefly raised for meat. That is good evidence that the story about Krsna being a cow-loving God is imaginary and nothing more. It is a branch of the problem of evil, which easily demonstrates by way of reason how a the idea of a benevolent God is contradicted by the fact of the world.
Just came across this now. Has anyone ever had the thought that Veganism was originally introduced by meat eaters so that the cows could be killed more quickly for their meat? (After all, if no one wants to drink or use their milk, then one can kill the cows sooner.)
I’m not using this as an argument for or against either side, but simply a thought.
Veganism in this world or not, Gomata is totally exploited due to lack of spiritual understanding, and evilism.
I see a lot of bickering here. I am an ethical vegan. An apathiest. Namely because any god that is not interested in the welfare of all sentient beings I don’t care about them. And this would be the deciding factor if I ever did decide to become Hare Krishna.
Chris, I just received your comment through my email account:
You state that you are “an ethical vegan”; ethical by whose standards? Your’s or Krsna’s? And are you capable (in terms of your level of consciousness at this particular point in time) to know for sure or not whether God (or as you say, “any god”) is or isn’t interested in the welfare of all sentient beings? This is not a criticism of your capacities or lack of them, simply a question for you to think about for yourself.
your servant,
B. Radha-Govinda
Hare Krsna
— On Mon, 6/11/12, OppositeRule wrote:
From: OppositeRule
Subject: [OppositeRule] New Comment On: Vegan Hare Krishna Centers
To:.com
Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 2:51 PM
There is a new comment on the post “Vegan Hare Krishna Centers”.
http://oppositerule.govindapeacefarm.com/?p=670
Author: Chris
Comment:
I see a lot of bickering here. I am an ethical vegan. An apathiest. Namely because any god that is not interested in the welfare of all sentient beings I don’t care about them. And this would be the deciding factor if I ever did decide to become Hare Krishna.
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After so much abuse in the Hare Krsna movement, it appears that Krsna either has no ethics worthy of consideration or does not exist at all. We live in a world where cows are almost entirely seen as food, “beef on the hoof,” they call them around here. Now, how is it that the God of inconceivable power and mercy loves cows? Who sends their loved ones to slaughter? The idea of a benevolent, ethical God who remains entirely invisible while confining us to a world so filled with conflict, suffering, and cruelty is total nonsense. Let’s stop pretending.
SB 1.14.41 “You are always the protector of the deserving living beings, such as brahmanas, children, cows, women and the diseased. Could you not give them protection when they approached you for shelter?”
The philosophy of Krsna consciousness doesn’t teach abuse, at least that was not my understanding of the philosophy. Yes, there were certainly abusive (and out and out SICK!!! people in ISKCON, and STILL are), but where have we heard in our scriptures of pure devotees being abusive? Abuse – whatever form it takes – comes from the minds of people who are not in sync with God (even if they tell you they are). (Truly God-conscious people are known by their symptoms.)
SB 3.25.21 “The symptoms of a sadhu are that he is tolerant, merciful and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures, and all his characteristics are sublime.”
Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya Lila 22.78-80 “Devotees are always merciful, humble, truthful, equal to all, faultless, magnanimous, mild and clean. They are without material possessions, and they perform welfare work for everyone. They are peaceful, surrendered to Krishna and desireless. They are indifferent to material acquisitions and are fixed in devotional service. They completely control the six bad qualities – lust, anger, greed and so forth. They eat only as much as required, and they are not inebriated. They are respectful, grave, compassionate and without false prestige. They are friendly, poetic, expert and silent.”
So is Krsna (or whoever has the position of God) a sadist? Or there is no God? There either is a God or there isn’t, and, if there is, (according to what you’re writing here, whether His name is Krsna or Joe), then He’s a creep; a creep Who’s just allowing any kind of garbage to happen. So if that’s the case, then why worship some “creep” Who’s God?
If, as is understood in terms of the Krsna conscious philosophy, (simplified), we’ve been placed into that area of God’s creation which is considered to be the prison (for those souls who don’t want to adhere to accepting and living according to the criteria set by God as the standard for living in His abode).
When people are place into prison, do they see the governor there in the prison with them?
And asking you here – but keeping it private (in terms of what you had told me years back regarding your vision) – do you believe now that you had that vision, or are you feeling it wasn’t a reality?
Material world is that place where karma plays itself out, and how many really have an(y) understanding of its intracacies? I also have my questions (and arguments) with Krsna, about how He “does things,” but this is where I can see more so, to some extent my conditioning; that I’m thinking I “know better” than God.
So it boils down to this: Either there is or isn’t a God. If there is, then either He is in control or He isn’t, and if He is, either He’s a creep (an unloving sadist – or loves whoever it is He does, but is a damned creep to others, who it would appear He doesn’t love, or loves them, but is a (perverted) sadist), or He’s the all-loving God, but we haven’t come to the point of being able to understand His loving nature, and why and how it is He’s chosen to “do” things in the way He’s chosen.
Your movement CLEARLY PERPETRATES abuse if it endorses industrial scale dairy production for its members. Whether or not it states that it should be supported or not! We aren’t talking about any God’s actions at this point. We’re discussing our own.
If you deny that animals in industrial dairy are NOT killed (and therefore suffer immense abuse), I think it is you who should be questioning your consciousness.
And if you don’t understand what is meant by ethical (in my case limiting harm and exploitation), again, I think it is your motives that need to be re-examined.
Chris, To be fair, the Hare Krsna movement has made a lot of lifelong vegetarians and has always been strongly opposed to animal slaughter. One may argue that the vegan movement is superior, but IMHO the militant vegan attitude probably turns off more potential converts than it convinces. Here you are harassing a bunch of vegetarians for having milk?
How many cows do vegans save by avoiding milk? It is theoretical, and I propose that it is imaginary too. Basic economics indicates that when demand for dairy drops, milk prices do too, and consequently slaughter rates increase. But you want to blame vegetarians for cow slaughter? No, that won’t fly here.
The philosophy of Krsna doesn’t explicitly teach abuse, but it promotes exploitation by teaching a need to surrender but not providing a safe circumstance to do it. It teaches that we should depend upon Krsna and falsely suggests that He will give help.
I understood about 20 years ago through science that excessive meat will bring catastrophic environmental harm and that humans would not be able to adjust, and feeling no other hope I sought out God. I believed I found Him in 1995 and devoted my life to His service for the next fifteen years. However, the sum of my interactions with devotees eroded and ultimately destroyed my hope for Krsna consciousness, and during my decades of vegetarian activism, global meat production has increased by more than 50%. It is a problem that I am convinced only God could fix, but all credible evidence indicates that He does not exist.
The vision I had was a long time ago, was subjective, and was likely a delusion or a hallucination. I treasured it and kept it alive for fifteen years, but that was my limit. If Krsna is real then He rejected the best of me and kicked me out of His movement for reasons that I cannot understand. Why should I go through life imagining that God has an inexplicable problem with me, and the whole world if the prison analogy is believed, when abundant evidence contradicts sastra and there is no public evidence that Krsna or any God exists at all? The world has big problems, and if the supposed sky daddy isn’t going to help, then there is no reason to be concerned with what others claim is His morality.
Dear Chris,
Hare Krsna.
First, it’s not “my movement.” Krsna consciousness concerns itself with “Sanatana Dharma” (eternal occupation of the soul), attainment of self-realization, and ISKCON (International Society for Krsna Consciousness) was created for the organized distribution of this philosophy, which also included how the practitioners were to adapt their lives socially to best facilitate this objective of spiritual attainment. Within this objective, was given the direction for (the proper) protection of cows (and bulls), along with an agrarian based society. Cows were to be milked BY HAND!!! and bulls allowed to work (as well as to get their rest), as arranged by God Himself.
Is the present-day (in terms of what most people know as the) “Hare Krsna” movement following what was taught by the Founder-Acarya, (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) who presented this philosophy found in the Vedas? No, they are deviating from the teachings. So the pure teachings is that the cow (our Mother), and the bull (our Father) MUST be protected, (protected which also means NICELY!!! PROVIDED for and NICELY SERVED).
I certainly do NOT “advocate” for ANY kind of abuse of cows (or anyone, within any kind of body).
Be assured that society as a whole, wherever one goes in the world, is SO DEGRADED!!! that whether people are vegans or not – the milk of cows is or isn’t being used by people – cows are ABUSED. In terms of the PURE philosophy of Krsna consciousness, our Mother (cow) and Father (bull) are to be LOVED, SERVED, RESPECTED, and ENGAGED nicely for THEIR happiness and welfare as well.
It’s not really a question of vegan / non-vegan, but a question of people’s having such LOW and EXPLOITIVE / ABUSIVE (and LACK of spiritually-based) consciousness, that cows are abused and killed and the so many other ATROCITIES that go on in this world.
And by the way, I have NOTHING to do with ISKCON because it has become SO DEVIATED from its INTENDED function.
Hare Krsna Paul prabhu,
In reply:
Paul: The philosophy of Krsna doesn’t explicitly teach abuse, but it promotes exploitation by teaching a need to surrender but not providing a safe circumstance to do it. It teaches that we should depend upon Krsna and falsely suggests that He will give help.
RG: Actually, this is where we did NOT understand things properly. In actuality the philosophy does NOT really promote exploitation, because part of the philosophy is that we surrender to one who is QUALIFIED!!! to ACCEPT one’s surrender. BG 10.4 purport: “Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution.”
Paul: I understood about 20 years ago through science that excessive meat will bring catastrophic environmental harm and that humans would not be able to adjust, and feeling no other hope I sought out God. I believed I found Him in 1995 and devoted my life to His service for the next fifteen years. However, the sum of my interactions with devotees eroded and ultimately destroyed my hope for Krsna consciousness, and during my decades of vegetarian activism, global meat production has increased by more than 50%. It is a problem that I am convinced only God could fix, but all credible evidence indicates that He does not exist.
RG: The question comes, “Were you REALLY associating with DEVOTEES?” Devotee doesn’t just mean this or that cloth, haircut and some clay on the body. One is a devotee by dint of consciousness.
CC Madhya 1.220 purport
“Unfortunately, in this Age of Kali there are many mundane persons in the dress of Vaishnavas, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has described them as disciples of Kali. He says, kali-cela. He indicates that there is another Vaishnava, a pseudo Vaishnava with tilaka on his nose and kanthi beads around his neck. Such a pseudo Vaishnava associates with money and women and is jealous of successful Vaishnavas. Although passing for a Vaishnava, his only business is earning money in the dress of a Vaishnava. Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says that such a pseudo Vaishnava is not a Vaishnava at all but a disciple of Kali-yuga. A disciple of Kali cannot become an acarya by the decision of some high court. Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaishnava acarya.”
(You know the books way beyond me, and how to use the Vedabase. I’m just remembering this verse’s reference from the 1970s to be able to find it and put it here.)
In terms of “all credible evidence indicates that He (God) does not exist,” so how is it that if you hold up a pen and let it go, it will fall to the floor, yet the planets which weigh so much more are still staying in their places, not falling down?
Paul: The vision I had was a long time ago, was subjective, and was likely a delusion or a hallucination. I treasured it and kept it alive for fifteen years, but that was my limit. If Krsna is real then He rejected the best of me and kicked me out of His movement for reasons that I cannot understand.
RG: Did Krsna kick us out? or did the rogues who hijacked it? – the ones who poisoned Srila Prabhupada (which the whole GBC knows), and their “extended hands” (other GBC people and those of the like, and the newer people they “trained up” to whatever one would call it).
Could there be a possibility that Krsna might be having some good objectives, but we may NOT be understanding them? (I include myself in that “we,” and I also get upset regarding the direction ISKCON ended up going. But please note that all kinds of “stuff” was going on within ISKCON – AGAINST!!! Srila Prabhupada’s instructions / desires, even WHILE Srila Prabhupada was present on the planet; Srila Prabhupada’s understanding that there were some VERY DEMONIC people who had come to ISKCON and were giving Srila Prabhupada PROBLEMS as well. (But at least Srila Prabhupada’s presence at the time gave some check to the degree of how off-kilter things could go. AS SOON AS Srila Prabhupada was gone, that check no longer existed, and… I can’t explain for Srila Prabhupada why Srila Prabhupada chose to keep those creeps around, though I have my many ideas of why Srila Prabhupada did. But unless Srila Prabhupada directly tells us, we can’t say that what reasons we are thinking as possibilities are “right.”)
There may be another way to look at things as well – in terms of seeing it as “being kicked out.” Maybe Krsna felt you could be doing a lot more service for Him “outside” of ISKCON, and maybe Krsna felt that you were far more intelligent than so many other people (who are still “in” ISKCON), that you would NOT be a GBC-controlled dummy, and so Krsna got you OUT of an environment which would be so STIFLING of you as a SINCERE THINKING person. (And who knows, maybe Krsna was PROTECTING you from a lot WORSE!!!, and we BOTH KNOW!!! what that “lot WORSE” could be, and what SOME of these ISKCON “in-charges” are not only capable of doing, but DO!!! do.)
Paul: Why should I go through life imagining that God has an inexplicable problem with me, and the whole world if the prison analogy is believed, when abundant evidence contradicts sastra and there is no public evidence that Krsna or any God exists at all?
RG: First, maybe God doesn’t have “an inexplicable problem with” you. Maybe it could be that we – Again, I include myself in the “we” – have a problem with Him? (and don’t understand Him, His way (of choice) of doing things), or not agreeing with His way of doing things.
And as far as the “abundant evidence contradicting sastra, and “no public evidence that Krsna or any God exists at all” this is a conclusion we all end up deciding individually, whatever it is we end up with as our decision, which can even change at different points in time.
Paul: The world has big problems, and if the supposed sky daddy isn’t going to help, then there is no reason to be concerned with what others claim is His morality.
RG: Maybe “Sky Daddy” is trying to help, but we aren’t seeing it (or for some, accepting it if and when we do see it)?
Please note that my mood is not one of “trying to argue” with you, or anything negative. In my knowing you from years back, and believing you to be possessed of the same exact consciousness, I know that you are a SERIOUS, HONEST and SINCERE person, who lives IN INTEGRITY, and thus, to see a (the ISKCON) society which was SUPPOSED to be based on TRUTH (what to speak of Absolute Truth), to be what it is as a society today is a VERY PAINFUL thing for those of us who wanted to live according to such truth.
Krsna works in His Own timeframe, which for us seems to “take ‘forever’” but to Him is (much) less than a blink of the eye, or an exhale.
PH: The actions of others are now the basis for your beliefs? The behaviour of myself (which is simply pointing out facts) and equating me to militant doesn’t make the IDEA or CONCEPT morally bankrupt.
I am also not here “harrassing” people. I came here because I am genuinely interested in learning how tolerant Hare Krishnas are to vegans and veganism. So far, I am not impressed and you and your ilk are the ones coming off as militant.
As for your argument, we (vegans) do not buy into (literally) a system that systematically rapes, separates mother from child and slaughters cows for profit. No one said veganism “saved” anyone. Just like not punching your neighbour in the face doesn’t “save” them from such actions. All it does is take a stand against a clear injustice. And for a group of people who hold cows sacred, I would assume you would be on this side. Apparently not.
Chris: ” : The actions of others are now the basis for your beliefs?”
If you joined a religion and later discovered that their boarding schools were grossly abusive of children, it would not affect your beliefs about the God who is supposed to be in control? The perennial fighting between religions doesn’t tell you anything?
I don’t consider myself a Hare Krsna anymore, but generally they want alliance with vegans, except the extremists (with regard to either group). From my experience, vegans do not want that as much. It seems to me that they want to feel moral superiority. You even indicated that it’s not about saving animals, which supports my suspicion that it’s more about how the vegans feel, avoiding guilt and feeling proud.
I haven’t eaten any meat since 1992 and have been very active in promoting an end to animal slaughter, and I have personally maintained a small farm sanctuary at my home since 2003. Yet vegans readily blame me for animal killing that others do and that I cannot stop. Maybe milk IS good for the brain.
Radha-Govinda Swami:
First, are you not a member of the Hare Krishna movement as a whole; whether ISKCON or not? I would consider the possessive term “my” acceptable this case if you are a part of it and promote it (ergo: ‘your’ movement). But that’s just semantics we’re bickering about.
In your first paragraph in reply you admit the text you follow is antiquated. Since it is Krishna’s word that is being followed, do you think Krishna would want you (as his follower) to treat cows the way they are treated in modern farming practices?
You then go on to say it’s our responsibility to care for cows. How can you even think – in the remotest sense – that purchasing from an intensive modern dairy farm is protecting ANY cows? In fact in guarantees them a short, miserable life! To advocate for such a purchase is tantamount advocating for such abuse.
As much as PH seems to believe otherwise, I’m really not hear to fight, just to get information on vegans in the Hare Krishna movement. I was interested in trying it, but if this is how we are looked upon in the Hare Krishna movement I would rather not join.
PH: “If you joined a religion and later discovered that their boarding schools were grossly abusive of children, it would not affect your beliefs about the God who is supposed to be in control? The perennial fighting between religions doesn’t tell you anything?”
So the old “Hitler was a vegetarian therefore all vegetarians are Nazis.” Maybe you want to rethink that “Maybe milk IS good for the brain,” fallacy like all the others you are spewing here.
“I don’t consider myself a Hare Krsna anymore, but generally they want alliance with vegans, except the extremists (with regard to either group). From my experience, vegans do not want that as much. It seems to me that they want to feel moral superiority. You even indicated that it’s not about saving animals, which supports my suspicion that it’s more about how the vegans feel, avoiding guilt and feeling proud.”
Nice strawman. Any more fallacies you want to include?
“I haven’t eaten any meat since 1992 and have been very active in promoting an end to animal slaughter, and I have personally maintained a small farm sanctuary at my home since 2003. Yet vegans readily blame me for animal killing that others do and that I cannot stop. Maybe milk IS good for the brain.”
If you support mordern milk production you DO endorse slaughter. It’s that simple. Maybe your milk plaqued brain cannot comprehend that…
Chris,
First, fuck you for saying I endorse slaughter. This is my blog, and you’re being a stupid ass on it. I don’t have time for trolls. I’m an educated professional and a Mensa member, so your insults are just meaningless noise. Hitler wasn’t even a vegetarian, and he was just one leader, so your analogy makes no sense. Over 500 kids who went to the Hare Krsna schools sued for abuse, though Krsna promises to protect His devotees. When numerous points of evidence contradict a religion’s teachings, it raises doubts.
I don’t see your strawman. You did indicate veganism is not about saving animals. It seems to me from talking with vegans that it’s in effect about preventing them from being born, which strikes me as human dominance to an obnoxious degree. You call breeding “rape,” but a cow in heat badly wants to be bred. It is not rape just because YOU don’t want it to happen.
*sarcasm* I’m clearly the stupid one here *sarcasm off* …You have given ad hominem fallacies, strawman fallacies, fallacies of both sweeping and hasty generalizations, and outright libel. For someone claiming intellectual superiority, well, check your own arguments first.
And I know Hitler was not a vegetarian. But many people, like yourself, making sweeping generalization fallacies about such nonsense. Like you saying because some people in the Hare Krishna movement were found guilty of sex offences they all must be bad.
Veganism is a social movement. Being vegan only does not save animals lives per se. It simply does not kill them. I don’t know how to explain that in any more laymen’s terms for an illogical MENSA clod like yourself.
And inserting a plastic object into another animals vagina (while also putting their hand in their rectum) seems like a huge violation. For someone who is against the slaughter of animals, and sex abuse, you would think you could put two and two together.
I will leave it on this note. Based on your “logic”. You are an illogical person. Therefore MENSA is an illogical instution. Have a nice day and enjoy your blog…
Dear Radha-Govinda Swami,
I don’t buy the excuse that Prabhupada’s disciples deviated. He was either empowered by Krsna to attract competent, honest followers, train them, and leave the best in charge, or he was not. He set up the gurukulas but did not make sure the kids were safe. Krsna did not protect those kids, and He did not protect me when I took a stand for child protection. In retrospect, it was exactly as if he were a myth. But you were abused and saw more corruption than anyone else I personally know, so it’s odd to say this to you.
Was I associating with devotees? They were engaged in the process Prabhupada taught, mostly seeming to be more into it than me, even though I was doing my best. If it was not working for them, purifying their desires and their senses, then why should I expect success?
RGS “In terms of “all credible evidence indicates that He (God) does not exist,” so how is it that if you hold up a pen and let it go, it will fall to the floor, yet the planets which weigh so much more are still staying in their places, not falling down?”
Your usage of the word “down” sounds pre-Copernican. “Down”means in the direction of the dominant gravitational pull. This relates to the fact that the Earth is not the center of the universe, that there is no center, and gravity is a force shared between all massive objects, not just in relation to the Earth.
If Krsna thought this kind of experience would be good for keeping me in devotional service, it’s crazy. I can’t make excuses for His apparent neglect, and I don’t know why He would allow devotees to destroy my faith and do nothing to help, when He’s said in b.g. that he strengthens the faith of one who wants to worship the demigods.
Also, thanks for your understanding. You’ve always been an extrordinary friend, so I’m sorry to expose you to my anger about Prabhupada’s movement.
Chris, I really don’t have time for your trolling. Stop being a fuckin’ idiot and go argue with meat eaters if you want a fight. I was tempted to delete your nonsense, but then it started to seem a little funny so I let it stay. Still, it amazes me how vegans go looking for vegetarians to attack and blame us for animal slaughter, when I actually rescue farm animals and do my best to personally care for them until their natural deaths. Get a life, kid.
Chris:
Radha-Govinda Swami: First, are you not a member of the Hare Krishna movement as a whole; whether ISKCON or not? I would consider the possessive term “my” acceptable this case if you are a part of it and promote it (ergo: ‘your’ movement). But that’s just semantics we’re bickering about.
RG:
From your full reply here, apparently my whole June 12th, 2012 at 4:34 pm post in reply to you, was not understood at all. Maybe it might help make what I wrote earlier if you go back and re-read it after seeing this reply.
In reply to this specific question you are asking, No, I am NOT “a member of the Hare Krsna movement,” though I AM a Krsna devotee. To give an example that will hopefully make this understood, in case there’s any possible ambiguity, one’s following the teachings of Jesus Christ does not mean that one is a member of the Catholic church, and in fact, a person who understands Jesus’s teachings, will NOT be a member of the Catholic church. (I’m only going to state this and not get into any discussion on it. I’m sure you can figure this out.)
Chris:
In your first paragraph in reply you admit the text you follow is antiquated.
RG:
What text is antiquated? And where did I ‘admit’ “the text you (I) follow is antiquated”?
Chris:
Since it is Krishna’s word that is being followed, do you think Krishna would want you (as his follower) to treat cows the way they are treated in modern farming practices?
RG:
No. I believe my previous reply my answer “No” here, would have been understood.
Chris:
You then go on to say it’s our responsibility to care for cows. How can you even think – in the remotest sense – that purchasing from an intensive modern dairy farm is protecting ANY cows?
RG:
Did I say or think this?, so why are you PROJECTING this on me? In fact I earlier made the point that vegan or not, in terms of the overall IGNORANT and, in SO MANY CASES out and out DEMONIC!!! state of society, cows (and bulls – and other animals as well), are being ABUSED.
Chris:
In fact in guarantees them a short, miserable life! To advocate for such a purchase is tantamount advocating for such abuse.
RG:
Why the abuse is there, has nothing to do with vegan/non-vegan. It goes WAY!!! BEYOND this. (Just to give one practical proof: Bulls do not give milk, and they are abused as well. So are veal calves, who do not give milk.) So the point is that the abuse is there, whether cows are being abused for milk, and being abused even when not for milk. Cows and bulls are NOT to be “industrialized” and/or abused.
Chris:
As much as PH seems to believe otherwise, I’m really not hear to fight, just to get information on vegans in the Hare Krishna movement.
RG:
Some devotees are vegans; some aren’t. Some are vegans because of abuses committed to cows, whereas other devotees for other reasons. (Devotees who are vegan because of abuses to cows, if the milk was from a protected cow, would be taking milk products.) Any devotee having a proper understanding of the Krsna consciousness philosophy will NOT support anything that is going on in today’s world regarding “modern-day” treatment of our Mother (cow) and Father (bull). The Krsna conscious philosophy instructs that cows/bulls are the most important animals, and MUST be (properly) protected; that protection includes, being given love, proper respect, and SERVED!!!
Chris:
I was interested in trying it, but if this is how we are looked upon in the Hare Krishna movement I would rather not join.
RG:
Krsna consciousness presents what is self-realization and the Bhakti process for attaining it. In essence, one doesN’T “try it” (at least not in terms of what it seems to be your reasoning of giving a consideration for “trying it”. Of course if one “tries” the process of Krsna consciousness for ANY reason, there will be spiritual benefit made).
In the ultimate end, NO Krsna devotee – with any understanding of the philosophy of Krsna consciousness, what to speak of being possessed of a devotee heart – is going to tell you that what is going on in today’s world of ABusing cows and bulls “is alright.” EVERY person with understanding of the Krsna conscious philosophy will tell you that the ABUSE of the cow and bull is ABOMINABLE!!! and is NOT in accordance with Krsna’s instructions.
Hare Krsna Paul prabhu,
Back at the computer for a few whatevers, then going, let me reply your June 13th, 2012 at 1:15 pm post:
Paul:
Dear Radha-Govinda Swami,
I don’t buy the excuse that Prabhupada’s disciples deviated.
RG:
You’re right: REAL disciples do NOT deviate. They FOLLOW the DISCIPLINE given by their teacher. The problem is that MOST of us were NOT disciples (in terms of following to the T what was given to us from Srila Prabhupada. Of course there were some who did not hear directly from Srila Prabhupada and were even LIED to by the “in-betweens,” but I’m talking about people who did understand what Srila Prabhupada wanted/instructed and weren’t following). So those who deviated (by dint of consciousness) in actuality were NOT Srila Prabhupada’s disciples.
Paul:
He was either empowered by Krsna to attract competent, honest followers, train them, and leave the best in charge, or he was not.
RG:
No. Srila Prabhupada was commissioned on behalf of Patita Pavana, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, to give Krsna consciousness to ANYONE!!! who would accept it for ANY reason. (See CC Adi 9.36,39) A lot more can be said as to why Srila Prabhupada gave the possibility of opportunity for acceptance of and hopefully following the process of Krsna consciousness to anyone and everyone, but no time to go into all of this. The factoring in of patita pavana (to the fallen) is there. If Srila Prabhupada had ONLY attracted and preached to “competent, honest” followers – or had been “empowered by Krsna to (ONLY) attract competent, honest followers, train them, and leave the best in charge,” there might not have been anyone, or at most a few people, who would have come. (Krsna and Srila Prabhupada in MANY cases used some very “OPPOSITE type” – opposite from the qualities you’ve described here – people to distribute books (and preach to others) who accepted Krsna consciousness who DID have these (good) qualities. Again, a lot more can be said as to why Srila Prabhupada allowed for SO MANY (as He himself referred to some as) demons to come to (live and serve, and even stay when they created havoc within) ISKCON.
Paul:
He set up the gurukulas but did not make sure the kids were safe. Krsna did not protect those kids, and He did not protect me when I took a stand for child protection. In retrospect, it was exactly as if he were a myth.
RG:
I’m not going to “put a ‘blame’” as to the “whys” on anything. I’m not Krsna, to know this “why” or that “why” and the intricacies of the “whys.” You know as well as me that I’ve spoken up against things, and are aware of at least some of the “reactions,” I’ve had to sustain for having spoken up with the truth, and/or questioned this or that (injustice, atrocity, deviation, etc).
Paul:
But you were abused and saw more corruption than anyone else I personally know, so it’s odd to say this to you.
RG:
I’ve been reading and replying line by line (or thought by thought), so I ONLY NOW, JUST saw this AFTER having written my above comment. Anyway, you’re definitely right in terms of my seeing a lot, though others may be more aware of more “stuff” than me. (But I’ve certainly had my “share” of knowing, which if I had been given a “choice” by Krsna, I would have preferred to NOT have been made so privy in the way Krsna had arranged.)
Paul:
Was I associating with devotees? They were engaged in the process Prabhupada taught, mostly seeming to be more into it than me, even though I was doing my best. If it was not working for them, purifying their desires and their senses, then why should I expect success?
RG:
Engaging in the process, may not necessarily only mean in terms of the externals… Since I have to leave in a few minutes, I can’t say more here, but at least let me say this: Though I do know a few of the people under whom you were serving, and don’t know under whom you were serving elsewhere, I can safely say that at least SOME of the people under whom you were serving, you were DEFINITELY!!! a MUCH MORE SINCERE!!! PRACTITIONER and HONEST-MOTIVED person than those under whom you were serving (in terms of those ones who I do know under whom I know you were serving).
Paul:
RGS “In terms of “all credible evidence indicates that He (God) does not exist,” so how is it that if you hold up a pen and let it go, it will fall to the floor, yet the planets which weigh so much more are still staying in their places, not falling down?”
Your usage of the word “down” sounds pre-Copernican. “Down”means in the direction of the dominant gravitational pull. This relates to the fact that the Earth is not the center of the universe, that there is no center, and gravity is a force shared between all massive objects, not just in relation to the Earth.
If Krsna thought this kind of experience would be good for keeping me in devotional service, it’s crazy. I can’t make excuses for His apparent neglect, and I don’t know why He would allow devotees to destroy my faith and do nothing to help, when He’s said in b.g. that he strengthens the faith of I’ve who wants to worship the demigods.
RG: I have to go, so let me for now, not get into the gravity thing, but in regards to “If Krsna…demigods,” there’s a possibility that although now, because of what’s happened, you are having your specific questions/questioning at this point in time, and this set of circumstances may appear to be a cause of doubt, (etc), at another point in time, you may look back at them in a different way, and see them as having served a very good purpose.
Paul:
Also, thanks for your understanding. You’ve always been an extrordinary friend, so I’m sorry to expose you to my anger about Prabhupada’s movement.
RG:
Don’t be “sorry” at all. I’ve ALWAYS known you to be a VERY SINCERE!!!, SERIOUS, THOUGHTFUL and HONEST!!! person. So I KNOW that EVERYTHING you’re feeling and are expressing is coming from THIS platform of sincerity, honesty, seriousness and integrity. Thus, there is NO reason to “apologise.” I APPRECIATE!!! your seriousness, sincerity, honesty, and integrity. I’m just sorry that I’m not more Krsna conscious to be able to give an understanding that can put things in a different perspective.
(I’m out the door…)
Dear Paul Prabhu,
As I had to run out the door (and just now got back), I maybe wasn’t able to present something clearly enough that I was trying to say, so since I was trying to get my reply to you done quickly, and some things may not have come out clearly, let me retry here:
From June 12th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
In trying to address your point, “However, the sum of my interactions with devotees eroded and ultimately destroyed my hope for Krsna consciousness…”, my point back to this was, “The question comes, ‘Were you REALLY associating with DEVOTEES?’” – meaning, were these people (by dint of consciousness) really devotees? There were a LOT of people in this movement who were NOT devotees (in terms of qualities of consciousness attributed to a genuine devotee.) Devotee doesn’t just mean this or that cloth, haircut and some clay on the body. One is a devotee by dint of consciousness.
Definitely there were some of us who TRULY DID want to serve devotees (‘devotees’ meaning, people possessed of the consciousness of devotees), but, because of the situational setup, we ended up rendering service to some pretty demonic people at times, these people dressed in ‘devotees’ clothing, but definitely NOT possessed of devotee consciousness.
It is a problem that I am convinced only God could fix, but all credible evidence indicates that He does not exist.
God is the fixer of all problems, be it that He chooses when, how, and through whom to get whatever problem fixed. His frame of time may be quite different in His factorings than ours, and His reasonings for doing things the way He does, and in the timeframe He so chooses, may find a disagreement with our ideas of how we think/thought something “should have gotten” accomplished.
PURE devotees are ALWAYS accepting Krsna’s arrangements (with topmost faith), whereas we who are hoping to someday become devotees, not being possessed of utmost faith in God’s ‘being the One Who knows best how to handle this and that situation, have our questions: “Hey Krsna, Don’t you think it would be better if you were to do things this way…???” (etc.)
Yes, we want to see ‘the solutions’ to everything, (and of course THE BEST!!! solutions), our thinking we ‘know’ how it should be done, and when, etc., but this is where we see to what degree is our faith in Krsna. (When things are “going great,” then how wonderful we think Krsna is, (and how strong, we are thinking our faith is), BUT!!!, when something “off the wall” happens, (especially with the (so-called) ASSociation of devotees – getting whacked out), THEN our having to go through some form of suffering because of someone else’s being “crazy,” THAT’S!!! where our faith in Krsna gets tested, and tested, and tested.
Queen Kunti prayed for calamities, Caitanya Mahaprabhu for “rough embraces”, but Both of Them were Who They are, and Both HAD Krsna, whereas for we little peons who are simply trying to ‘get past our diapers’ in the Bhakti process are still crawling along, at times getting stuck and wettened by the puddles.
I don’t do well in this writing stuff. If you have my telephone number, call me if you want to speak.
Your servant,
B. Radha-Govinda
Hare Krsna
Krishna does not agree with PAIN and SUFFERING to anyone. Dont you dairy-consuming idiots get it. Veganism is the way; Vegan is LOVE. Hare Krishna
Keep the message simple. Krishna is love, Vegan is love. Neither are pain. Dont get into all kinds of crappy long-winded arguments. Love animals, love people. Hare Krishna.
And doesn’t (since you used the term) an idiot like you Vegan, understand that because we live in such an UNGodly world, whether a person is vegan or not, the cows are STILL going to be slaughtered? (by those who are ABUSING Gomata’s body). It’s not a matter of Vegan. It’s a matter of people’s MISuse, ABUSE, and PROFITERRING.
Krsna is loving, and Krsna gives the instruction how to serve GoMata (MOTHER Cow).
It’s because Krsna’s instructions are NOT being followed that ALL of the problems exist, which include Mother Cow’s being slaughtered, along with the fact that idiots (even among vegans) like you, don’t understand what will bring about genuine peace. (Read what Krsna said in Bhagavad Gita 5.29)
And to “Love All” – who is probably another version of “Vegan Krishna” – do you truly know what is love?
Like people, cows produce milk only after giving birth. To provide a constant stream of milk, cows are kept in a perpetual cycle of pregnancy and lactation. It is not true that humans just “use up” the spare milk that the calf doesn’t want. Dairy cows are deliberately bred to produce ten times more milk than a calf would naturally drink. This pushes the poor cow to her very limits of her endurance, forcing her to work as hard as a human made to jog for 6-8 hours every day. The strain of this is such that after a few year her milk yeild drops and she is replaced with a more profitable animal. As with all farmed animals, she is destined for the slaughterhouse.
Although eating a vegetarian diet is very good thing, consuming milk and following the Hare Krishna movement appears to be quite contradictory in my view. Most of the major religions follow the law of Ahimsa, which is to do no harm. Would it then not be more ethical to follow a vegan diet that is completely plant based where no violance has been caused in order for us to eat? Surely veganism is more in alignment with the values and ethics that are held by the Hare Krishna Movement and its followers?
Contrary to what people believe, cows do not “give” us milk, they produce milk for their offspring just as humans produce milk from their breast to feed their baby.
A cow is a mammal.
She lactates for her baby.
Your mother is not a cow.
You are not a calf.
Therefore, your drinking cow milk is unnatural and absurd.
Kay, Please read about symbiotic relationships. There is nothing unnatural about interspecies cooperation.
I used to buy milk from a family cow that gave milk for nearly ten years after having only one calf. I believe this cow is about twenty years old now and still very likely living and doing well. It is only when there is no concern for the cow that the abuse vegans talk about exists. When there is love for animals it is possible to share resources for mutual benefit. That is better than the abolitionist vegan idea.
Dear Kay,
Hare Krsna. I hope you are well.
There are so many things that people say, and there are things that Krsna (God) Himself says/prescribes, His prescription being the best because He is perfect. God knows what is His creation, and what is best for everyone and everything in it.
In the Vedas (which have been given by Krsna, God), Krsna explains that cow’s milk is not only for the consumption of her calf, but for human consumption as well. Krsna also explains that cows (and bulls) MUST be properly (loved, cared for and) protected, (like one does so with one’s own children), so in regards to how the Lord Himself set things up, it is not simply a “one way street” of exploitation, which we now see on all levels in Kali Yuga; so many abuses being done due (only) to greed.
Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.7
“The cow is the most important animal for developing the human body to perfection. The body can be maintained by any kind of foodstuff, but cow’s milk is particularly essential for developing the finer tissues of the human brain so that one can understand the intricacies of transcendental knowledge. A civilized man is expected to live on foodstuffs comprising fruits, vegetables, grains, sugar and milk. The bull helps in the agricultural process of producing grain, etc., and thus in one sense the bull is the father of humankind, whereas the cow is the mother, for she supplies milk to human society. A civilized man is therefore expected to give all protection to the bulls and cows.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.4
“The king cannot tolerate insults to the most important animal, the cow, nor can he tolerate disrespect for the most important man, the brahmaṇa. Human civilization means to advance the cause of brahminical culture, and to maintain it, cow protection is essential. There is a miracle in milk, for it contains all the necessary vitamins to sustain human physiological conditions for higher achievements. Brahminical culture can advance only when man is educated to develop the quality of goodness, and for this there is a prime necessity of food prepared with milk, fruits and grains.”
SB 4.18.10
“When human society becomes asat, or ungodly, or devoid of Krsna consciousness, the entire world suffers. If human beings are well-behaved, animals will also receive sufficient food and be happy. The ungodly human being, ignorant of his duty to give protection and food to the animals, kills them to compensate for the insufficient production of grains. Thus no one is satisfied, and that is the cause for the present condition in today’s world.”
“In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live very long. Although in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk. This is a sign of Kali yuga. In Kali yuga, instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His instructions of Bhagavad Gita, advises go-rakṣya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one’s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential to give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their milk bags.”
SB 3.16.10
(The Lord speaking): “The brahnanas, the cows and the defenseless creatures are My own body. Those whose faculty of judgment has been impaired by their own sin look upon these as distinct from Me.”
In Srila Prabhupada’s explanation, is the following: “The defenseless creatures, according to Brahma Samhita, are the cows, brahmanas, women, children and old men. Of these five, the brahmanas and cows are especially mentioned in this verse because the Lord is always anxious about the benefit of the brahmanas and the cows and is prayed to in this way.”
Our whole present “civilization” is NOT civilized (in accordance with God’s understandings given, and His intentions); thus, everything is so crazy, including cows NOT being properly cared for and PROTECTED, besides all the other factors not properly in sync…
So much more is given in A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada’s books, besides explaining about PROTECTING our Mother (Cow), and Father (bull) why cow’s milk is given for humans.
As said, the problem is that our society is not following the system that God Himself has given as the formula for human society to be following, through which not only will cows and bulls be properly cared for and protected, but we humans and living entities in other bodies as well.
Your servant,
B. Radha-Govinda
Hare Krsna
Hi Paul, thanks for you feedback reply. I am glad to hear that the milk that you consumed was from a happy cow. Unfortunately, the majority of animals are not treated in this way and os consumers of dairy do not have access to obtain food produce in this way. Thnaks to factory farming and horrific slaughter houses, animals are beaten, stamped on, mutilated and so much more by “humans”, who are apparantly supposed to be the most intelligent of all species….. Just so we can take their milk and eggs and eat their dead flesh…?
People simply go to the supermarket, buy their milk and neatly wrapped chicken wings and pork chops without ever considering where their food comes from. There is a massive disconnection in the world and I find this very disturbing. Even if I could buy milk and eggs from “happy” animals, I still choose not to. For me, animals are not here for us to use, wear, eat or for any other reason. What gives us the right to take anything from them? Who said that we could? Because we’ve always done it and thats “just the way things are”, which makes it okay? I disagree.
I simply do not want to be a part of the violence and suffering that the animals go through day in and day out until they die a painful death. I do not want to be a part of that exploitation therefore I refuse to pay for and buy these products that people call “food”. Many people think vegans act as if they are superior to everyone else, well quite the opposite is true, we are vegan because we don’t feel superior to any living being…. we just want people to leave the animals alone… let them be
Hello Radha-Govinda Swami
Thank you for your reply
.
I appreciate the points you are making and I do agree with you when you say that society is not following the system that God himself wished for. In order to begin making a difference, we have to DO something different. If you no longer wish to participate in violence and suffering towards other beings, please, please go vegan for the animals, for the planet and for your own peace of mind. We reap what we sow. What we do to the animals, we inevitably do to ourselves. There will never be any peace in the world until we stop eating animals and dairy. I have read many stories about the past times of Lord Krishna, the cows and the gopis. But in those times, a slaughter house did not exist and cows and other animals and all of the natural world was protected. I do not place milk on my temple at home as an offering to Lord Krishna, as the milk has been obtained from a cow that has suffered terribly and I cannot see why I should offer the milk that should have been for a baby calf. It feels wrong and it is hypocritical of me. There are so many healthy plant based alternatives that we can use now, soya milk, oat milk, rice milk, almond milk, all without the saturated fat, cholestrol and pus found in a cows milk. Food contains energy and vibrations, which means we take in the animals fear, terror, anxiety, anger etc into our bodies.
We need to move forward. Times have changed and traditions to follow this change and adapt. If we can live our lives without causing harm to any living being, then why wouldn’t we? This is why I am vegan. It makes sense, yet people just choose not to accept change.
Kay, If you boycott the use of byproducts of well treated animals, it seems like you would like them to go extinct. That’s extremely violent, IMHO.
BTW, I know very well the vegan viewpoint, but I think it is a nice try but not ideal. Forming symbiotic relationships with diverse species is ideal. The abolitionist vegan concludes with the extinction of the animal species that our predecessors bred to allow their survival and our existence. That is unacceptable, and it makes abolitionist vegans into terrorists who threaten food security and trigger the curtailing of civil rights. I’m sorry but the vegetarian idea is much better, and moreover, the vegans arguing against vegetarianism are overall counterproductive IMHO and should STFU because they turn people off from quitting eating meat.
Paul, I am not against vegetarianism. If people have given up meat and turned veggie, then thats great and its a huge step for them which they should be proud of.
I am not trying to boycott products of well treated animals. I’m just saying that for me personally, being vegan is what I feel most comfortable with.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one!
Thanks for your comments though, appreciate them.
Kay, I’m glad to hear you have a more moderate view than most other vegans I’ve known. I’ve been told many times by vegans that milk is worse than meat, and I hope they don’t tell that to meat eaters but figure they probably do. Most meat eaters have enough trouble with the idea of quitting that, so the vegan proposal is just absurd. Unlike veganism, a vegetarian diet has no nutritional deficiencies and is relatively easy to maintain. I know the self-satisfied feeling of being vegan but I have very extensively weighed the factors involved, taking into account many scientific disciplines in the twenty years I have given to this issue since I was an environmental studies university student, and I’ve concluded that preaching veganism instead of vegetarianism or even a flexitarian option, does more harm than good. If you want to help animals you should advocate for better treatment, not absolute boycott like you have done here.
Dear Kay,
Hare Krsna again.
In regards to your 4:37pm post, (quoting this statement you wrote), “In order to begin making a difference, we have to DO something different. If you no longer wish to participate in violence and suffering towards other beings, please, please go vegan for the animals, for the planet and for your own peace of mind. We reap what we sow. What we do to the animals, we inevitably do to ourselves. There will never be any peace in the world until we stop eating animals and dairy,” it’s a fact we “have to DO something different,” but your idea of what to do, is different from Krsna’s idea. Only Krsna’s ideas are perfect.
Please don’t get me wrong: I’m not telling someone they “should not be a vegan.” If you are chosing to do so, then you can make that choice. But in regards to people “going vegan,” even if many people make that choice, you are STILL going to have the cruelty to animals that is going on.
When people begin to understand and follow the standards that Krsna, God Himself gives, only then will things become (properly) changed. The real lacking in this world is Krsna consciousness; a lacking of consciousness of God, and that which God Himself has given as His instructions for the proper running of all of society – which includes the animals. Not only are the human beings considered as citizens, but ALL of the living entities, in whatever body into which they’ve been placed.
Krsna has created things in such a way that through their interaction in accordance with the criteria He has given, there will be a balance of peace/harmony. Because we (either on an individual basis, or society as a whole) go against that which Krsna has given, we have created all the violence and imbalances.
Mankind, due to our imperfections, cannot come up with a solution as perfect as Krsna’s. If we would follow that which Krsna tells us to do, the violence on all levels would cease. Due to man’s violence, (not just physical, but violence really meaning “to violate Krsna’s, God’s desires, God’s specific instructions” – which when followed, allows society to keep its harmony), we have the disharmony that is in existence on all levels throughout this planet.
Your servant,
B. Radha-Govinda
Hare Krsna
PS: When people have hard or hardened hearts, they will be cruel. (Generally cruel-hearted people just “don’t give a damn”; some of them even getting pleasure out of cruel acts.) Sometimes their cruelty comes simply because of ignorance; no one has helped them to think. (Some people, after telling them and getting them to think about the pain, cruelty committed to animals, what goes on, and their having some realization of “what they’ve been eating on their plates that came packaged in the store” was an animal that has been cruelly slaughtered (and more often than not, cruelly mistreated – putting it mildly – even before they were killed), they will become vegetarians/vegans.)
Srila Prabhupada speaking in a Dec 26, 1972 lecture to the devotees, said the following:
“I have seen in Calcutta, while passing through, one hotel man was cutting the throat of a chicken, and the chicken was, after being cut, the throat, it was jumping like anything. You see. And he was laughing. He was taking pleasure. It was for me so horrible, but he was taking very nice pleasure: ‘This half-cut chicken is jumping.’ And his son was crying. And he was asking, ‘Why you are crying? Why you are crying? So it is the question of different qualities. One is attracted, and one, he finds that, that they are detracted.”
So what was HORRIBLE for Srila Prabhupada to see (and for anyone possessed of a heart that does not want such violence committed), for this killer man, gave him pleasure. (We have some VERY!!! SICK!!! people in this world, but there are others who, if given understanding, will make a change in themselves.)
In the meanwhile please Visit “Prasadarians” on FB, nice preps offered to Lord Sri Krishna from all over the world~https://www.facebook.com/groups/Prasadarians/, haribol!
I m sure that prasadam is great to honor to make to offer and then to share
probably vegan one s a better choice now
when we all know what they adding in the milk and in the cow diet etc
mostly those added vitamin are animal sources likes fish oil or sheep whole juice
choosing to be vegan it is a spiritual one
and a material one
It is choosing not to be responsible of any slaughter, using or keeping animals in captivities seam a better peaceful choice
call it spiritual choice